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Raquel Evita Saraswati - Project Ijtihad - www.irshadmanji.com
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[Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 12, 2008 @ 07:59 AM
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"If I don't have the freedom to disbelieve, I cannot believe." - Dr. Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im
Are faith and reason compatible?
Do religion and science have a chance at coexisting?
Can the religious and non-religious agree to disagree, or are their differences too great?
Can people of faith admit to and speak against the ill-treatment of apostates, atheists and others? It's time to take a hard look at religious texts and societal practices - and refuse violence against those who choose a different path.
Can those who ardently deny God's existence recognize religion to be a legitimate choice for many? Being religious doesn't automatically mean one is blind to reason. Or even science.
This is the place to talk it all out.
This post was edited on: 2008-06-12 at 07:59 AM by: RaquelEvita (Moderator)
This post was edited on: 2008-06-12 at 08:03 AM by: RaquelEvita (Moderator)
[Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
I'm not sure
(1 votes for 4.17%)
Yes, but sometimes they seem to contradict one another
(5 votes for 20.83%)
No
(6 votes for 25%)
Yes
(12 votes for 50%)
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CHRISTOPHER
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 12, 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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FAITH AND REASON: YOU NEED TO EXPERIENCE POWER OF TRUE LOVE TO KNOW REASONS, WITHOUT IT YOU JUST DISBELIEVE, SIMPLE SURVIVAL RULES. I HAVE MET MANY PEOPLE AND DISBELIEVE IS NORMAL TO THEM, THEY JUST FEED ON IT AND USELESS DESIRES THAT JUST BRINGS TROUBLES TO THEM, IT'S A LIFE WITHOUT BEING ALIFE CIRCLE, AWEAKEN...ONE MUST FIND INNER TRUTH AND RAISE TRUE LOVE VIBRATION TO FIND FAITH. TRUE FREEDOM COMES FROM TRUE LOVE EXPERIENCE.
GOOD QUESTION! I LOVE YOU...CHRISTOPHER
RaquelEvita wrote:
"If I don't have the freedom to disbelieve, I cannot believe." - Dr. Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im
Are faith and reason compatible?
YES
Do religion and science have a chance at coexisting?
VERY MUCH SO...
Can the religious and non-religious agree to disagree, or are their differences too great?
WITH LOVE ALL IS POSSIBLE.
Can people of faith admit to and speak against the ill-treatment of apostates, atheists and others? It's time to take a hard look at religious texts and societal practices - and refuse violence against those who choose a different path.
TRUTH IS GOD'S LOVE, VIOLENCE COMES FROM LOWER CONSCIOUSNESS
ALL SEEK ENLIGHTMENT AND MORE
Can those who ardently deny God's existence recognize religion to be a legitimate choice for many? Being religious doesn't automatically mean one is blind to reason. Or even science.
THEY MUST EXPERIENCE POWER OF TRUE LOVE, THEY CAN CALL IT GOD OR SCIENCE OUTER LIMITS
This is the place to talk it all out.
This post was edited on: 2008-06-12 at 07:59 AM by: RaquelEvita (Moderator)
This post was edited on: 2008-06-12 at 08:03 AM by: RaquelEvita (Moderator)
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 13, 2008 @ 03:01 AM
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The question is leading. Of course there are people who follow religion who are widely considered educated and reasonable people. My contention is that once organized religion is introduced, rational thought needs to be suspended to argue its legitimacy. "Reason", as it were, does not support a "god theory", and that's inherent, as the laws of probability rule out notions of a creator, and even more so that an organized religion would somehow facilitate this magical transcendence into another world when you died. Indeed, some of the most brilliant minds show an Achilles heal on the point of religion, inexorably swearing by such erroneous beliefs, and fantasy/fable like superstitions. I suppose that's why most of the worlds foremost scientists identify with Atheism.
Let's say hypothetically, for the sake of argument, there was this magical "god" figure. Would he/she/it discriminate and/or favor its own creations based on the restrictive doctrine of man? Can you honestly, within the limits of your capacity to reason logically, conclude that something so tenuously omnipotent and otherworldly, would bias itself only to a certain group of people following laws written by man (claimed to have been divinely imparted)? Does the breadth of your collective wisdom and intellect tell you, objectively, that if there were a god (as you were indoctrinated into believing as a product of your upbringing) that the god would belong to you and those who taught you of it/him/her? That holds up to the light of reason to you?
I'm curious to know.
To: The Christopher. I've felt love. I've fel immersed and consumed by a deep and profound, blissful, rapturous love. I've basked in the glory of it as it pervaded my every sense of being. You know what that's called? Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Dopamine.
~ B.Soto
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atoo faith
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 13, 2008 @ 08:13 AM
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 One fact that man can never deny regardless os how hard he tries is the existence of God. And to believe that God exists, you need faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Without faith, the human race is forever lost to the unreality that we somehow appeared out of nowhere and sadly, after death, we are going nowhere. When you examine man's intelligence, his extraordinary abilities and his weaknesses, you cannot justify them with science. Rather, you look up to the existence of a great master who in sheer dexterity put man together with all his various endowments. He, God, pulls the strings, calls the shots as far as man is concerned.
Am not being religious. Am placing some pretty plain facts on the table. You might be wondering how reason comes into the picture. Simple, your reason should be driven by faith. Try thinking about this;the universe is extremely large, way beyond the imagination of mankind. Reason tells me that's right. Faith tells me that's right, so much that only God could have spoken it into existence...
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 13, 2008 @ 09:03 AM
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atots wrote:
One fact that man can never deny regardless os how hard he tries is the existence of God. And to believe that God exists, you need faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Without faith, the human race is forever lost to the unreality that we somehow appeared out of nowhere and sadly, after death, we are going nowhere. When you examine man's intelligence, his extraordinary abilities and his weaknesses, you cannot justify them with science. Rather, you look up to the existence of a great master who in sheer dexterity put man together with all his various endowments. He, God, pulls the strings, calls the shots as far as man is concerned.
Am not being religious. Am placing some pretty plain facts on the table. You might be wondering how reason comes into the picture. Simple, your reason should be driven by faith. Try thinking about this;the universe is extremely large, way beyond the imagination of mankind. Reason tells me that's right. Faith tells me that's right, so much that only God could have spoken it into existence...
I am with Bsoto on this one. While the existence of God cannot be disproved, it certainly can't be proved either, not by resorting to anthropocentric arguments like atots does. Thanks to Charles Darwin and evolutionary science the last refuge of "God" is the time before the Big Bang, but of course there is no proof that "he" existed then either.
Face it, most people are religious and identify with a certain religion only because their parents indoctrinated them at a very early age.
There are so many problems in this world to solve. Sometimes scientists make the problems worse, but at least they are trying to find solutions. I just can't see what purpose is served by fervent belief in an imaginary omnipotent being who never seems to take an interest in solving the world's problems. It is a tragedy that the wishfull thinking that is religion will probably snuff out life on this Earth and trust me, the Earth is all we know for sure exists.
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 13, 2008 @ 09:32 AM
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atots - Quite the opposite is true in fact. Actually, the existence of God is the furthest thing from "fact", (hence the pretenses of "faith" and is quite easily denied. Atheists do so every day. Laws of probability are on our side. God, though not technically disprovable, is very very improbable. That is the Atheistic line of reasoning, and it is quite sound. Why subvert science in favor of fairy tale? Why refuse to ask questions and engage your intellect in favor of mythological beliefs handed to you?
So the question then becomes, if you aren't going with the more rational variants of Darwinian/Evolutionary theory, why instead choose the least likely and more "mythological/superstitious" magical god theory instead? That's not reason. That's irrationality.
I'm still curious how someone will answer the hypothetical I posed earlier: If there is a god, why would your religion be the correct one? Why not Zeus, or Tempeku the Sea god? Why not Apollo? or Rah etc etc? Why not any one religion? Why espouse the doctrine you were brought up in, when it would be different had you been born anywhere else in the world? How is it rational to assume the religion you were taught must be the "right" one?
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CHRISTOPHER
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 13, 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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IN SHORT:
HUMAN RACE NEVER CAME TO UNDERSTANDING OF REAL GOD, BUT EVIDENCE IS CONTAINED IN ALL RELIGIONS AND WISDOM
TRY TO UNDERSTAND ALL TO MAKE SENSE... MUCH LOVE TO YOU ALL.
atots wrote:
***One fact that man can never deny regardless os how hard he tries is the existence of God. And to believe that God exists, you need faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Without faith, the human race is forever lost to the unreality that we somehow appeared out of nowhere and sadly, after death, we are going nowhere. When you examine man's intelligence, his extraordinary abilities and his weaknesses, you cannot justify them with science. Rather, you look up to the existence of a great master who in sheer dexterity put man together with all his various endowments. He, God, pulls the strings, calls the shots as far as man is concerned.
Am not being religious. Am placing some pretty plain facts on the table. You might be wondering how reason comes into the picture. Simple, your reason should be driven by faith. Try thinking about this;the universe is extremely large, way beyond the imagination of mankind. Reason tells me that's right. Faith tells me that's right, so much that only God could have spoken it into existence...
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 13, 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher, That was nearly incomprehensible. I would also add that unfortunately it's not helping anyone understand to type in all caps either.
Serotonin, Dopamine, and Oxytocin are neurotransmitters. Not "drugs you take" (lol). They are naturally produced in everyones brains, and are responsible for the emotions and feelings you mentioned. My point was that spirits don't create those feelings, our brains do.
Since we're bandying about links, you might find interesting these comments made by once religious faithful, now enlightened by the books of world renowned Atheist, Oxford Professor of Biology, and best selling author Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene etc.) : [link="http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner"]
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atoo faith
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 04:18 AM
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Religion, I must remind you guys is a very sensitive subject, so much that lives are lost each day over it. So i suggest we be alittle considerate when discussing it.
My question is addressed to Bsoto.Have you ever had an experience where you come to believe that there was indeed some sort of supernatural intervention.In simple words really, do you believe in luck?fate?good fortune?something that happens to you and you really have no control over it? yeah, i guess you have. you can't convince me otherwise.
This is the point. Science cannot explain something as simple as that. Moreso because you yourself is at a loss for words when you are faced with such an incident.
Tell me, what is the first thing that jumps to your mind. Yes. I got it. The presence of some supernatural force that is somehow able to avert certain occurances that are beyond our control.
Believe me, your mind is not in a position to say something like, "oh thank you science for saving me..."
Rather, your sigh of relief will be something like, "thank you God!"
Have you ever wondered why that is so...It is not because you have been indoctrinated since birth...It is because man is created with a God shaped space in his heart. That space can only be filled by God.
Picture this scenario...you personally witness a tragic accident. No matter how atheist you are, you won't scream..."Oh my science"
You can, if you really want to. I mean, you are old enough, you decide what you can and what you cannot say...
The existence of many religions is a result of man's attempt to understand God. In this attempt, man has created his own impressions of what a real God should be like. Coupled with this ofcourse comes the need for superiority and the claim that the God that I envision is most definately the true God. For that reason, I cannot allow anyone else to change who and what my God is.
If you notice, one thing is common to all religions. God is big, he is great, he is everything beyond the imagination of man. That should tell you something...There should be a God. I mean...All humanity is not being stupid right, I mean 3/4 of the world is not being foolish right? The problem here is that they hve all confused one big fact...
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atoo faith
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 04:42 AM
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Oh, and another thing, a great deal of scientists we know acted on faith to make discoveries and inventions. I mean, they believed that out of nothing, they could probably come up with something. Believe me, it does not take reason for you to do that. To many people, you would sound irrational.something out of nothing?
I don't underestimate the capabilities of science. Science is great. Science can do so much, but science does have it's limits...
But i must say that man by nature wants to be superior. Superior to animals, to plants, even to God.Every one you meet believes they are superior to you in one way or the other. My point? Having proven what the great God had already put into motion and then used God's creation to make this big thing and that big thing, man allowed his accomplishments to get to his head.
He rejected the existence of a supernatural God, leaned to science because science is something he created and can control...
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 04:52 AM
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I apologize in advance for hurting people's feelings, but atots and THE CHRISTOPHER are just two examples of why religion and reason are not compatible.
I cannot detect a rational argument for the existence of God anywhere in atots's long post. That THE CHRISTOPHER doesn't know dopamine is a naturally produced hormone in the human body is proof that a lack of education and religion is compatible.
I have said this in other threads, and I am not picking on Islam, I am just using it as an example of the effect a strict religion can have on scientific accomplishment, but there have been very few Muslim winners of the Nobel Prize in a natural science. Yes, yes, before anyone gives me a long list of Muslim Nobel PEACE prize winners, give me a list of Muslim winners of a Nobel Prize in science. If I recall, there was a Pakistani who won the Nobel Prize for physics once. Yes, yes, there was once a Golden Age of Islam when there were streetlights in Granada and Mulsim scientists made great discoveries. That was a long time ago and during a relatively mild Islamic time.
The same observation can be made for Northern and Southern Europe where Southern Europe under the influence of the Catholic Church remained relatively undeveloped and poor vis-a-vis Northern Europe where the more liberal Protestant Churches were predominant.
My point: belief in a strict religion can be a major factor in hampering scientific progress.
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atoo faith
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 05:13 AM
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I have no hard feelings believe me. apology well taken.
a simple question realy, do you believe in miracles? a descent human should u know...
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 09:51 AM
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Before I was educated, I believed many foolish mythological and superstitious things, yes. Before college I believed divine intervention must be responsible for extraordinary circumstantial occurrence. I never dared to engage my intellect and ask why and explore the many possibilities, and since I adhered to a flawed belief system, I foolishly assumed "magic god" must be the reason. Then that all changed when I went on to college and got interested in the creation vs evolution debate. I thought it would be unfair to dismiss evolution if I hadn't studied it myself. I took courses in logic, evolutionary theory, and read books by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, David Mills. I questioned my childhood indoctrination, and found that it didn't stand up to logic and reason very well at all in fact.
I find it curious in your statements, that your answer to rare circumstances, or the mysterious, must automatically be attributed to a supernatural "god", and that god must somehow only be the one you believe in. So if "X" happened, and can't be explained by science, then "Y" must be true. This is a quasi-transitive relation fallacy. First, it's entirely possible that A. Science hasn't yet been able to demonstrate why this "X" has happened, but may yet still. B. Science has formulated several plausible theories as to how this may occur, and you've chosen to overlook those. C. It may simply be exactly what most rational thought tells anyone - it was merely serendipitous, fortuitous, unlikely, or rare circumstance.
What I'm getting at here is, why would the very isolated and special cases of the unexplained be justification to believe in even more irrational beliefs? That's compounding your dilemma by writing it off as "god". How is that reasonable?
That a majority of humanity adheres to religious beliefs is reason enough to follow an organized religion isn't a compelling argument. Religion has been handed down through our families for thousands of years, and dates to a time when there was an absence of science, and primitive beliefs were pervasive. Tribes and wacky religious practices were a way of life. Science has progressively debunked claim after claim by religion consistently every century. Evolution and it's ever growing mountain of evidence has been chipping away at the edifice of creationist religion since the latter half of the 19th century.
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 02:21 PM
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I agree and had mostly the same development reagrding reason and religions. But after researching I did find out that we must not judge all things and thus become stuck in generalizations.
The criteria is if there is a God, how would it act or interact with the universe? What is it's purpose?
The Christian God's image has no relation to reason, nor does almost any traditional God's image. An intervening God is not logical and would mean "It" could not design a self-sufficient & sustaining universe.
You had mentioned the probability theory before "proving" God does not exist, but this is not a fact but a theory. And it only rules out a certain God's image.
Richard Dawkins amazes me in his overall-generalization of things and his lack of knowledge on philosophical arguments. Let's say in short, in his books he skips many things. So he is not objective in my eyes. Paul Davies has far better scientific arguments:
Astrophysicist Paul Davies:
“There is no doubt that, even in the crude form, the hypothesis of an intelligent designer applied to the laws of nature is far superior then the designer considered in the previous section (a God that intervenes red.), who violates the laws of nature from time to time by working miracles in evolutionary history. Design-by-laws is incomparably more intelligent than design-by-miracles. If I were an omnipotent being who wanted to make an inhabited Universe like ours, and I could achieve this simply by conjuring up what I wanted when I wanted it, I wouldn’t regard my activities as very clever. But to select a set of laws that, without nay periodic fixing up and micromanagment, can bring a Universe into being and bring about self-organisation, self-complexification and self-assembly of life and conciousness-well, that looks very clever indeed! So the ‘intelligent’design beloved of the Intelligent Design movement strikes me as not very intelligent at all, in contrast to a designer of laws of nature which by themselves have such astonishing creative ability without the need for intervention and miracles.
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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He continious:
Intelligent design of the laws does not conflict with science, because it accepts that the whole Universe runs itself according to physical laws, and that everything that happens in the Universe has a natural explanation. There are no miracles other than the miracle of nature itself. You don’t even need a miracle to bring the Universe into existence in the first place, because the big bang may be brought within to explain the origin of the Universe from nothing, or by assuming something like eternal inflation. The designer-of-laws is responsible for the Universe, and might be thought of as upholding its existence at every moment, but does not tinker with its day to day operation. The type of God I am describing comes close, I think, to what many scholarly theologians-and for that matter quite a few scientists-profess to believe in.” [Page 226. The Goldilocks Enigma by Paul Davies, 2006.]
Well, let me tell my own story. I come from a Christian background. I have studied Physics and Chemistry and Micriobiology and in my young adolence let go of any traditional faith and shifted between agonistic and atheisism.
I had these questions, for example, if God exists, why doesn't he stop the wars or feed the people? But later on I understood this argument is false as it only disproves an intervening God, because who says God should intervene since we pick up the guns and let people starve?
We have free will and carry all the consequences there off.
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